Tuesday, March 28, 2017

132 S TURNER ST, VICTORIA, BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA

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May 4, 2017 Cathy Palmer in front of mother's Victoria BC home


HOME OF JOHN AND MARY HEARN AND THEIR DAUGHTERS PATRICIA AND TULLY JOYCE (2015 Google photo)
They lived there in 1914 when my mother, Tully Joyce, was born.

Just saw that this home has been historically registered! Read more below. Clara Belle was my great grandmother and Mary Hearn's mother.

Heritage Register
James Bay

132 South Turner Street (ex-12 South Turner St)

Built 1890
Heritage-Designated 1985
For: James Hall & Skene Lowe

132 South Turner


ARCHITECTURE:

This is a finely restored Queen Anne-style 1½-storey house with front gable roof. The elaborate wrap-around verandah terminates in a bay window on the side. It has turned posts, arched brackets and spindled balustrade. The main floor cladding is drop siding with cut shingles above. The front gable has a balcony with elaborate squared Palladian windows, turned posts and spindled balustrade. There is a large gabled extension on the right and dormer on the left, producing a picturesque roof line whith impressive corbelled brick chimneys, one with chamfered corners. The handsome square picket fence has a curved entrance and astragal.

ORIGINAL OCCUPANTS:

Photographers Hall and Lowe built the house and owned it until 1907 as a rental property. Skene Lowe lived at 45 Carr, later known as 204 Government, from 1889-1920. He was born England and came to Victoria c.1884 to operate the Victoria branch of the Winnipeg studio Hall & Lowe. Lowe continued to operate the business after the partnership dissolved in 1892, when James D. Hall became sheriff of Vancouver. Lowe used the old name until 1900, then changed it to his own. Fire destroyed the Government St office, and he moved to Douglas at Yates Sts. At the onset of WWI, Lowe left Victoria for Los Angeles due to failing health. He returned here and briefly reopened, but health problems forced him to retire. He died in Vancouver in 1920 at 64. He left a widow, son and daughter.

OTHER OCCUPANTS:

pert King, in 1897-99. Born in Nova Scotia, he came to Victoria in 1884, and was a commission agent for 30 years. Charles died in Victoria in 1914 at 69. Adam and Mary Reid lived here in 1899-1900. They came from Scotland in 1896. Adam was a clerk, then an accountant. He died of TB in 1906 at 47.

Alexander and Elizabeth McMorran owned this property from 1907-10. Alex, the son of Saanich pioneers George and Isabella McMorran (1347 Vining St, Fernwood), was born in Paisley, ON, came to BC with his family in 1890, and grew up on a farm in the Cedar Hill area (3501 Cedar Hill, Saanich designated heritage). Alex, a clerk with BC Land & Investment Agency, in 1908, married Elizabeth, the daughter of Samuel and Christine Whittaker (1203-05 Yukon St, Fernwood). They moved to the Cariboo in 1921, and Alex managed the Gang Ranch for Western Canada Ranching Co. He retired in 1944, and they moved to Kamloops, BC. He died in 1958 at 76, Elizabeth in 1976 at 91.

Robert Hall owned the house from 1911-17. John and Clara Belle Minto lived in the house from 1912-16, and Clara owned the property from 1917-21, after they left Victoria. John was born in Hamilton, ON, and was a telegraph editor with Victoria Daily Times. He married Victoria-born Clara in 1901. Ernest Albert Grau was the owner from 1921-27.

Mary Louise (Burke) Murray, widow of David, owned this house from 1927-43. Mary was born in Liverpool, England, and came to BC with David c.1910. They lived in Trail, BC, where her husband was a rancher until his death in 1912 at 40. Mary still lived at this residence when she died in 1943 at 59. Her daughter, Mae Louise, was a school teacher at South Park School and St. Ann’s Academy. She resigned in 1948 and moved to Detroit, MI, to get married.

Albert and Edith (Genereux) Bystedt lived here from 1945-51. Albert was born in the USA, Edith in Lethbridge, AB. They moved here from Saskatchewan in the early 1940s. Albert was a mechanic and then a building contractor from 1948 until he retired in 1963. He died in 1968 at 69, Edith in 1958 at 54.

In 1990 owners Maureen Mackintosh and Derek Hawksley won a Hallmark Award for their detailed restoration of this house

http://www.victoriaheritagefoundation.ca/HReg/JamesB/STurner132.html

Below are a few emails giving more family history:

Email from Pat Peck to Cathy Palmer
September 8, 2010

hi cathy......k and I are sitting in our gorgeous room at the marriott.....waiting to go to tea at the Empress Hotel....we have to dress up to a degree for the occassion.  It is really pretty here....today is sunny.  can't use our phones because of the expence.  Found the house at 132 Turner Street that the Hearns lived in when Mommy was born. It is still standing and really cute.  I took a lot of picturs which I will send  when I get backi to Karen's. 
came by 2 ferries yesterday....tooki from 1 to 7 !!!!!!  Most of that time waiting in line.l  will send more loater. love from pp

--- END ---

Email from Pat Peck to Cathy Palmer
December 8, 2006

Hi Cathy,
I got the pics today. They are SO GREAT!!!! You did a good job with the composite.

I was sorry to hear about Alice. She told me when I was at her house with Frank that they were leaving me a picture of Daddy's dad beside a train engine. It was 8 by 10. Wish I knew who had her stuff because it would be fun just to have a copy of the picture. I had never seen him before.

Is Willard still alive.?

Do you have the letter Gene sent. Some of his information is kind of iffy.

More about Mommy's side:

Real grandfather was called Paddy Condron
John Minto was a newspaper editor in Canada in Victoria
There was a cousin named Betty Wilcox. (Elizabeth and Mary seem to be the names of choice for a lot of these babes.)
Pat and Joyce had a cat named "Friday" and a dog named "Toyful"
Their pretend names were Dorothy Van for Joyce and Patsy Van for Pat.
Joyce worked at Fairchild Aerial Photography as a secretary from secrertarial school until marriage. During the depression she made more money than all of her friends......8 dollars a week.

During WW II Norwood Smith (cousin) was in ROTC at UCLA and was sent to North Africa. Morocco.....had a command of an all black troop. They had a lottery as to when to get out ....and he won and got to go home early.

Harry Smith (his brother) worked at a defense plant and was exempt and never had to serve in uniform. but in Oklahoma and Arkansas

George Hibben (Pat's husband) was in India CBI (China Burma India) technical sergeant (mail). The Japanese use to watch the American movies from the bushes.

John Hearn was in Honolulu in 1911. Pat had no knowledge of why. She was born in 1912.

Found something else on Daddy's family.
Norma Palmer born 9/16/08 died 12/15/96

Grover St. Clair aprn 8/24/89 (he was only 9 years older than Daddy???? died 11/61. Maud Hess born 9 /29/85 died 11/63
Myrtle Quackenbush (her sons were Colon (sp?)and Myron) they were active in Johovah Witnesses. Born 7/20/90 and died 1/83 that's 1983. Gene use to go to her house every day and take her a McDonalds when she was older. He also called his mother every day of her life.

I let you know if I learn more. Thanks again for the great pics.

love,p


--- END ---

Email Cathy Palmer sent to Greg van der Werff
December 23, 2006

Below I typed out what I could read of the information that Patty sent recently:

Pat Hibben wrote:

Aunt Betty, Aunt Nancy and cousin May Tully lived in New York but visited in Victoria and Detroit (Gull Lake) Gull Lake was a real estate development of my father’s, hence all the relatives staying there.

The pictures of Honolulu were taken by my father – I don’t know what he was doing there in 1911.

Rose Hague was oldest sister in Hague family and must have died before 1910 because there are no pictures of her.

The O’Hearns were Irish. The Hagues – English. Our maternal grandfather (Condron) was Irish and was called Paddy. My mother’s nickname was “Tot”. Everyone called her that for some reason. My father was always called Jack.

My father was in Costa Rica on government business in 1918. I have my mother’s passport with me listed on it but she died in the influenza epidemic just before we were to leave.

Samuel Hague
B 9-11-1837 England
D 1-28-1892

Mary Lee Hague
B 6-18-1838 England
D 9-24-1890

Children:
Rose Ann Hague
B 5-31-1860 England
D ?

Elizabeth Hague
B 4-6-1860 England
D 4-6-1860

William Hague
B 4-9-1863 (where?)
D 5-3-1887

Nance Hague
B 8-9-1865 Penn, USA
D 5-12-1931

Elizabeth Hague
B 10-26-1868 MO, USA
D ?

Clara Belle Hague (Nana)
B 7-27-1871 MO, USA
D 2-20-36

Samuel Conrad Hague
B 3-12-73 MO, USA
D 2-21-51

Frank Edward Hague
B 12-15-75 Oregon, USA
D 7-2-39

Mary Madeline Hague (mother of brothers Norwood and Harry Smith)
B 1-31-1878 Oregon, USA
D 1-1-1968

Moved to Canada from Oregon shortly after 1878

JOHN O. HEARN by Mary E Regan (written January 22, 1962 and notarized by William J Regan)

My bother lived in the city of Detroit until the year of 1907 when he was appointed by his corporation to take care of their investment in Canada, returning here (Detroit, MI) for a short period in 1911 on some business matters, then left in 1912 again for Canada, returning with his family in the middle of the year of 1914, staying here. He never joined the arm forces of the Canadian Forces or ever worked for the Canadian Government. To the best of my knowledge I believe the port of entry that he came back through was at Windsor, Canada, along with his family, in the middle of the year of 1914. As to his citizenship, I wish to state that my brother was very active in politics before leaving here in 1907 and on his return in the state of Michigan. In fact, her was employed by the state of Michigan as a Buyer of Real Estate for the program setup by the state of Michigan for the purchase of future state parks. My brother died on February 22, 1952.

Certified copy of record of birth
DOB: 2-19-1883
Name: John Edward O’Hearn
Birthplace: Elk, Michigan
Father: Edward O’Hearn
Residence: Elk
Birthplace: Ont
Occupation: Engineer
Mother: Elizabeth O’Hearn
Residence: Elk
Birthplace: Michigan

John O’Hearn’s siblings:
Mary (Regan) mother of Francie, Shirley, Gail
Agnes (Brodell) mother of Mary, Betty, Joan
Frank O’Hearn

My sister, Patty, gave Aunt Pat (Hibben) an old photo album she had and asked her who all the people were. This is what she wrote:

Hagues
Your great-great grandparents and your kid’s great-great-great grandparents were both in Oldham, England were Protestants.

Clara’s (our grandmother, Nana) first husband was Condron (died). Second husband was John Minto (our step grandfather) from Scotland.

Frank married to Eva – no children (lived in Burbank in a stone house up above Olive in the canyon)

Rose O’Connell – husband Frank –daughter Sheila – granddaughter Mabel

Also daughter Edna Richardson, mother of Rosemary and Jim

Sam – married to Blanch – no children

Elizabeth (Aunt Betty) Minot – children Mary & boy killed in accident – San Francisco – Green divorced

Nancy Tully – daughter May; later Stephen – son Gus

Mary Smith – husband Frank; sons Norwood and Harry

There were two of the Hague children who died young in England.

O’Hearns – Catholics

John O’Hearn (Hearn) our father and Mary Maybelle Condron (our mother)

Frank O’Hearn’s (wife Rose – no children – divorced)

Agnes Brodell (husband Jack, children: Mary, Betty & Joan)

Mary Regan (husband Will – children: Francie, Shirley, Gail)

Mother & Rose O’Hearn were friends. They attended a matinee together where Mother caught the flu and died in the epidemic of 1918 (age 28) - she was pregnant.

The O’Hearns lived in Detroit but Frank and Rose and Agnes visited Mother and Daddy in Victoria.

--- END ---


APRIL 24, 2017 UPDATE
Link to British Columbia, Canada, Archives Genealogy for family name HAGUE
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy/Results?page=1&as.type_birth=true&as.type_marriage=true&as.type_death=true&as.type_baptism=true&as.type_colonial_marriage=true&as.last_name=hague&search=Search&pageSize=50

Clare Belle Hague Condron Minto had a brother William and sister Nancy. Nancy married Frank Tully. Both William and Frank tragically were among the many miners killed in the Nanaimo mining accident May 3, 1887.

Event Type:
Marriage
Registration Number:
1884-09-092410
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B11380
GSU Mfilm Number:
1983708
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1884-05-15
Event Place:
NANAIMO
Groom:
WILLIAM HAGUE
Bride:
LUCY BAKER

Event Type:
Marriage
Registration Number:
1884-09-092572
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B11380
GSU Mfilm Number:
1983708
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1884-07-18
Event Place:
NANAIMO
Groom:
FRANK TULLY
Bride:
NANCY HAGUE
Vital Stat Images(s):

Event Type:
Birth
Registration Number:
1884-09-004686
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13808
GSU Mfilm Number:
2114957
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1884-10-07
Event Place:
VICTORIA
Person:
HENRIETTA HAGUE
Vital Stat Images(s):

Event Type:
Birth
Registration Number:
1886-09-048079
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13808
GSU Mfilm Number:
2114957
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1886-02-10
Event Place:
NANAIMO
Person:
VOILET HAGUE

Event Type:
Baptism
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B16240 - not available at BC Archives
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1886-12-27
Event Place:
NANAIMO
Person:
VIOLET HAGUE
Person's Father:
WILLIAM UNKNOWN
Person's Mother:
LUCY UNKNOWN
Denomination:
CHURCH OF ENGLAND
Church Name:
ST PAULS CHURCH
Other Location:
NANAIMO
Birth Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1886-02-10
Birth Location:
NANAIMO
Comments:
FATHER MINER

Event Type:
Death
Registration Number:
1887-09-043830
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13084
GSU Mfilm Number:
1927112
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1887-05-03
Event Place:
NANAIMO DISTRICT
Age at Death:
23
Person:
WILLIAM HAGUE
Vital Stat Images(s):

Event Type:
Death
Registration Number:
1888-09-043833
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13084
GSU Mfilm Number:
1927112
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1888-02-14
Event Place:
NANAIMO
Age at Death:
21
Person:
LUCY HAGUE
Vital Stat Images(s):
004437584_01567.jpg

Event Type:
Death
Registration Number:
1890-09-044318
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13084
GSU Mfilm Number:
1927112
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1890-09-24
Event Place:
NANAIMO
Age at Death:
52
Person:
MARY HAGUE
Vital Stat Images(s):

Event Type:
Death
Registration Number:
1892-09-044328
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13084
GSU Mfilm Number:
1927112
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1892-01-25
Event Place:
NANAIMO DISTRICT
Age at Death:
54
Person:
SAMUEL HAGUE

Event Type:
Birth
Registration Number:
1892-09-049686
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13810
GSU Mfilm Number:
2114718
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1892-08-13
Event Place:
NANAIMO
Person:
ELIZABETH MAUDE HAGUE

Event Type:
Birth
Registration Number:
1893-09-050278
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13810
GSU Mfilm Number:
2114718
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1893-10-24
Event Place:
NANAIMO
Person:
LYDIA EVA MAY HAGUE

Event Type:
Marriage
Registration Number:
1898-09-168260
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B11387
GSU Mfilm Number:
1984108
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1898-01-01
Event Place:
GRAND FORKS DISTRIC
Groom:
ANDREW F MILES
Bride:
M C HAGUE

Event Type:
Death
Registration Number:
1898-09-046123
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13085
GSU Mfilm Number:
1927113
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1898-01-25
Event Place:
NANAIMO DISTRICT
Age at Death:
12
Person:
VIOLET HAGUE
Vital Stat Images(s):

Event Type:
Death
Registration Number:
1898-09-012630
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B13079
GSU Mfilm Number:
1927289
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1898-12-20
Event Place:
VICTORIA
Age at Death:
75
Person:
ELIZABETH HAGUE
Vital Stat Images(s):
004437645_00304.jpg

MARRIGE OF MINTO AND CONDRON
Event Type:
Marriage
Registration Number:
1901-09-010137
BC Archives Mfilm Number:
B11368
GSU Mfilm Number:
1983525
Event Date (YYYY-MM-DD):
1901-05-27
Event Place:
VICTORIA
Groom:
JOHN MINTO
Bride:
CLARA BELLE CONDRON
Vital Stat Images(s):
--- END ---

EUGENE 'PADDY' CONDRON
Father of Mary Maybelle Condron

Coroner Orompton has decided an official inquiry to be necessary in the case of Eugene Condron, a machinist employed by the E. & N. railway company, "who died very suddenly at an early hour yesterday morning. There is no suspicion of foul play, but the fact that no medical practitioner was in attendance upon the deceased necessitates an inquest to determine the cause of death. Mr. Condron, who was a native of Queenstown, Ireland, was but 20 years of age, and leaves a widow and one child, resident on Henry street, Victoria West. He has during several months past been subject to frequent attacks of appendicitis, and one of these it is supposed proved fatal. On Sunday he was in apparent good health— at 3 yesterday morning he became suddenly ill, and before medical aid could be secured, expired.
SOURCE: Daily Colonist (1897-01-19)
https://archive.org/stream/dailycolonist18970119uvic/18970119_djvu.txt

NOTE: The document below says Eugene was 29 years at death.


--- END ---

APRIL 26, 2017 UPDATE

Death Certificate for Mary Maybelle Hearn




EMAIL FROM PAT PECK TO CATHY PALMER
12/8/2006
Hi Cathy .....sorry I missed your call last night.  The great grandmother was Clara Belle (I don't know whether that is one word or two words.....I'll have to go through Pat's stuff.  I'll try to do that sometime later today.  John Minto sounds right .....I know it was Minto. .....and the first was Condron
had to stop for a minute to pay the bug guy.
There was a big exposion in a mine in Ninimo (sp?)  where they were from that was sort of a mysterious thing and I don't know if the first husband lived there or not.  They lived at 132 S. Turner St. Victoria BC at one time......Pat gave me that address.  Clarabelle may have been one word.  I wish I had known about the Belles.  Karen could have been Karen Belle.........OR Linda, Linda Belle........or Laura, Laura Belle  to carry on the tradition.
John Edward O'Hearn, later changed to Hearn...was an Engineer born in Elk, Michigan Feb.19. 1883 (I got this off an application for a passport) father was Edward (or it could have been Eugene) O'Hearn born in Ontario and was an Engineer.  Mother was Elizabeth born in Michigan. They had 4 children I think.  I have a picture with 4 I think.  Frank was one. and Joan, Betty and Mary mother was the only girl.  At the moment I can;t think of her name. oh oh oh...Agnes.  She was married to Jack Brodell......who I didn't like as a child.  I think he drank a lot.  .... Or at least once!!!!  got to go ....love, p
Back to the Palmers and St. Clairs:
Edna (Gordon's mother) had 6 siblings.  Maude, Jose, Myrtle, Grover, Sumner and Babe.  These people did not have any romance in their hearts to name children with the beautiful name of St. Clair such strange first names.....exception, Sumner.  I don't think I ever met him.  Grover you probably met because they would come occassionally for a visit.  He was Daddy's favorite.  Edna was born in Wicklifte, Indiana on Dec 25, 1875.  She was the oldest.
--- END ---
April 14, 1991 Letter from Uncle Gene to his niece, Cathy Palmer:Info regarding your ancestors. Your great great grandparents were farmers. They owned farms near the small towns of Eckerty, Birdseye, and Evansville in the southern part of Indiana. Your great great grandfather was a St. Clair and great great grandmother was a McMahan. Now when each of their spouse died, they met and married and their first offspring was your grandmother born Dec 25, 1875, who met and married Max Palmer, born 1868 in Louisville, KY.

Max was a railroad engineer for the Southern Railroad and for years they lived in the resort town of French Lick Springs and New Albany, Indiana. Later they moved to Louisville, KY, where Max ran the passenger train to St. Louis, MO. Edna and Max had five kids: Gordon, Willard, Bob, Darwin, and Gene. Edna and Max met by waving to each other. She was a young farm girl and he was a dashing young railroad engineer driving his passenger train by her farm. She waited each day for him so they could wave to each other. Then one day, he stopped and picked her up and that's how it all started. Five kids later, they split fighting over money.

Max Palmer's father came from Baden-Baden, Germany, approx 1860. His father was the burgermiester of Baden-Baden. He served in the union army as an adjuntant general. He knew six languages and translated orders for the various commands. After the war he published a German newspaper in New Albany, Indiana. He married a German girl and had three sons: Hans, Max and Otto. Hans and Otto were merchants in New Albany, Indiana.

Edna's sister, Maud married Glen Hesse - No kids
Edna's sister, Jose married Chas Stevens - 3 boys, Russel, Babe, & Topi
Edna's brother, Sumner had sons and daughters in Arkansas
Edna's brother, Grover had sons and daughters in Arkansas
Edna's sister Myrtle married Ralph Quackenbush - 3 boys, Ralph Jr, Myron, and Colin

Edna and Max's children: 5 sons
Gordon 1898-1976 wife Joyce Hearn 1914-1977 had 3 girls, Patty Jo, Susan, and Cathy
Willard 1900-1971 wife Louise had 2 kids, Willard Jr & Marlene
Bob 1905-1979 wife Norma Goodie had 3 girls, Roxie, Pam, & Christie
Darwin 1907-1973 wife Mary Ardel
Gene 1917- wife Alice Bryan 1914-

Edna St. Clair Palmer 12/25/1875-2/10/1964 89 years died of broken hip in North Hollywood, CA

Max Palmer 1868-1933 65 yrs died of cancer in Los Angeles, CA
--- END ---
GENE AND ALICE PALMER
Gene Palmer died in 2000:

ID: I20224 Name: Eugene Palmer Sex: M Birth: 5 Jan 1916 or 1917 Death: 13 FEB 2000 in Glendale, Los Angeles County, California Change Date: 11 DEC 2005

Father:
Max Palmer b: FEB 1868
Mother:
Edna S St Clair b: 25 DEC 1875 in Indiana

According to Uncle Gene's letter, Aunt Alice was born in 1914 and on the Social Security Death Index, I found an Alice Palmer who was born 1/24/14 and died 11/12/03 in the Los Angeles county, so this most likely is her.
Kind of sad... wished I'd stayed more in touch with them.
--- END ---

EMAIL FROM GREG VAN DER WERFF TO CATHY PALMER
12/8/06

Hi Cathy -
Found this information.  The 1890 census was accidentally destroyed by fire, so there are censuses every ten years from 1790, except 1890.  For privacy reasons, the last census that has been released is 1930.
1930 census LA Assembly District #58  S Kenmore (St)   3 Apr 1930
John Minto  57  born Scotland father born Scotland mother born Irel-North  to US 1917  Clerk Electric Co
(from 1880 onwards, the census lists the person's birthplace, then the birthplace of the person's father, then the birthplace of rht person;s mother)
Clara B "  58  born Mo Eng Eng
Mary P Hearn granddaughter 17 born Can-Eng Mich Can-Eng  to US 1915?
Joyce Hearn  granddaughter 15 born Can-Eng Mich Can-Eng  to US 1915?
1920 census  Detroit Ward 2 Wayne Co Michigan Enumeration District 73 sheet 4B  Cass (Street?)
John Minto  lodger  47  to US 1917 Alien  born Scotl Scotl Scotl Checker Auto Co
Clara B "  wife  45  Mo Eng Eng
John O Hern  son-in-law  37  Mich Mich Mich  Director Oil Co
Mary P  7  Can-Eng Mich  Can-Eng
Tully J  5  Can-Eng (after this is written above Am Cit) Mich Mich
1910 census  Wayne Co Michigan, Detroit 7th Ward, Woodbridge St
Elizabeth O'Hearn (head of household)  born aug 1858  mother of 4 children, 4 then living born Mich Irel Irel  Rented House
John O'Hearn  son  born Feb 1883  17  Mich Canada-Eng Mich  Bookkeeper
Frank  "  born apr 1884  16  Mich CE Mich  Shoe cutter
Mary " born Aug 1885  14  Mich CE Mich
Agnes "  born Aug 1888  11  Mich CE Mich
Carrels ??, Bridget, mother  born Dec 1824  75  widowed married 54 years mother of 6 children, 5 then living, born Irel Irel Irel to US 1842  in US 58 years.
(Unfortunately I can't make out her last name !  The writing is so faint that it's almost gone.  The computer index shows "Carroll")
1910 census  Detroit 10th Ward Fifteenth St
Elizabeth O'Hearn 45  widowed 4/4 children born Mi Irel-Eng Irel-Eng no profession  Owned house free of mortgage
Frank  25  Mi CE Mich  Engineer (Fairview Coal Co?? hard to read)
Agnes  19  Mi CE Mich  Saleslady Retail Store
1920 census Detroit Wayne Co Mich Holden Ave
William J Regan  35  Mi Mass Mi  (profession hard to read, - - - - Baker Co)
Mary E  33  Mi Can-Eng Mi
Frances  9  Mi Mi Mi
Gale  5  Mi Mi Mi
Shirley  2 4/12  Mi Mi Mi
Elizabeth O'Hearn  60  mother-in-law  Mi Eng-English Ireland-English
1930 census  Detroit  Holden Ave
William J Regan 45  married at age 25  Mi Ma Mi  Proprietor Bakery
Mary  43  married at age 23  Mi Mi Mi
Frances  19  Mi Mi Mi  Secretary Bakery Co
Gail  15  Mi Mi Mi
Shirley  12  Mi Mi Mi
Barbara  6  Mi Mi Mi
Frank M O'Hearn  brother-in-law  44  Divorced  Mi Mi Mi  Operator Real Estate
This on ancestry.com and rootsweb.com (this family is in someone else's file):
Wm J Reganborn 23 Dec 1884 d 19 Dept 1967 Detroit s/o Timothy Regan b May 1856 Ma and jane Morrison b 8 Feb 1858 Washtenaw Co Mi; married 1910 Detroit to Mary Elizabeth O'Hearn.  At the time of Wm's death, he had 4 grandchildren and 7 great-grandchildren, 3 daughters living.
I'll add this information next time I get a chance, and maybe someone will find it.  Can I put your email address as a contact point for the Palmers and Hearns ?
Greg
Continuing.
1850 census, City of Bangor, Penobscot County, Maine.  26 July 1850.
Peter Carroll  25  Mariner  born Ireland
Bridget "  22  born Ireland
John "  2  born Me
Mathew  " 6/12 born Me
living next door:
Mary Carroll (age hard to read, first number is "4" - - next number may be "0" - - however, the age is surely wrong, as this person is probably the same as the Mary Carl living with Peter Carl and family in 1860; that Mary was 65 in 1860).  Mary is shown as unable to read / write.
1870 census, Speaker Township, Sanilac County, Michigan, 27 June 1870, P O Brockway Center.
Peter Carroll  47  Farmer  $2500 real estate / $800 personal property  born Ireland  noted as not being able to read / write
Bridget "  43  born Ireland
John  21  Farm laborer  born Maine
Matthew " 19  Farm laborer  born Maine
William "  17  Farm laborer  born Maine
Peter "  10  born Mich
Saul (male, perhaps Samuel ?) " 7  born Mich
Mary "  6  born Mich
Elizabeth "  5  born Mich
Note:  I'm at a loss to explain these childrens' names varying so muxh from the 1860 and 1880 census.  Because the first four names, Peter, Bridget, John, and Mathew are consistent, we can be sure that it is the same family for 1860. 1870, and 1880.  Sometimes the family was not home when the census-taker came, and neighbors might give the information, incorrectly.  Otherwise, I don't know why the names vary.  Your puzzle !
Then I found this IGI submittal to the LDS site:
Peter McCaral married Bridget Davis  1 July 1847  Penobscot, Maine.  One would need to get a copy of the original record here, but, because of the date, I think it's pretty certain that this is the right couple.  (See below for xonfirmation that this is the right xouple).  Again, there is some confusion, because of the name McCaral.
Then I looked for Davis and Carl / Carroll families in Penobsxot (the letter "see" key on my omputer just gave out !  so this will add to the mystery; I'll substitute X).  xounty, Maine.
In the 1850 ensus, John Davis, 25, Laborer, born Ireland, $500 personal property, appears on the same page as Peter xarroll and family.  Just above him was Mixhael xander or xonder 48, Laborer, born Ireland, Sarah same, 30 born Ireland, and William Davis 60, Laborer, born Ireland.  So, I figure that John Davis was a brother of Bridget, and that William Davis was their father.  Sarah Xonder or Xander was probably another (married) daughter of William.
I'm pretty sure this is xorrext bexause John Davis appears in the 1860 xensus in Speaker Township, Sanilax Xo Mixh (he was 35, born in Ireland, and married to Eliza, with xhildren Sarah, Hugh, James, Robert and William.  In 1870, he was again in Speaker Township, age 45, more xhildren.  In 1880, he was in Speaker Township again.  In one of these xensuses, (I forgot to note whixh), he was the next-door neighbor of Peter Xarl / Xarroll.  So, John Davis will have been the brother of Bridget Davis, wife of Peter Xarl / Xarroll, and the 1847 marriage in Maine, above, is the right one.
Now baxk to the O'Hearns. 
1880 xensus of Alxona Township, Alxona Xo Mixh  8/9 June 1880.
William MGue  28  Labors in woods  born NY  father born NY  mother born NY
Orilla " (wife) etx
plus several young men, lodgers, inxluding:
Edward O'Hearn, boarder  23  Labors in woods  born Xan  father born Ireland   mother born Ireland
Robert J Furlong, boarder  24  Labors in woods  born Xan  father born Ireland   mother born Ireland
Pretty sure this is the right Edward O'Hearn, who later married (about 1881) to Elizabeth Xarroll.  Sanilax Xo Mixh has marriage rexords beginning from 1870, so you would probably find the O'Hearn / Xarroll marriage there.  It would be worthwhile to go after this doxument, just to be sure.  The next step would be to try to find him in the 1861 xensus of Ontario, Canada, whixh would show his parents' names.
I made no progress on the names Paddy Condron, and wife Clara Belle (last name unknown).  The best bet here would be to try to find the death record of Mary Maybelle Condron, wife of John Edward O'Hearn, in Canada.  Pat made references to "cousins" Betty Wilxox and Norwood and Harry Smith.  You might ask her if she knows just how there were cousins, and cousins of whom ?  If they're on the Condron side, this would give more clues.
So how about that ?  I'll post all this next time I add to my rootsweb.xom file.  You've got mail, and, you've got relatives. 
Probably Joan Leslie is still alive.  No doubt she has a lot of information about the O'Hearn family for you, if you xould reaxh her, she might be able to fill in a lot of gaps.
Sorry about the X key !!  Just one more thing to get fixed.
Greg
--- END ---
MAX PALMER
Father of Gordon Palmer
--- END ---
ANOTHER EMAIL EXCHANGE BETWEEN GREG AND CATHY
12/14/06
WOW! Thanks so much Greg... that's A LOT of very interesting information about our family (copying both Patty & Susie on this). The name Hague sounds familiar, now that I read about it.
Do we know anything more about Paddy Condron - dob & dod? What happen to him?
Here's what I found about the mining accident: "On May 3, 1887, a massive explosion erupted deep underground in the Number One Coal Mine in Nanaimo, British Columbia, taking the lives of 148 souls, many of whom had emigrated to Vancouver Island from countries all over the world." This list includes 23 yr old William Hague and 28 yr old Frank Tully: http://www.rootsweb.com/~bcvancou/places/miners.htm.
Click here to read more about the mining accident:
The Nanaimo mine explosion on May 3, 1887, in Nanaimo, British Columbia killed 150 miners and was the largest man-made explosion in the world until the Halifax Explosion. Only seven miners survived and the mine burned for one full day.
The explosion started deep underground in the Number One Coal Mine, after explosives were laid improperly. Although many miners died instantly, others were trapped by the explosion. These men wrote farewell messages in the dust of their shovels. More than 150 children lost their fathers and 46 women became widows.[1] A plaque at the foot of Milton Street commemorates the event.
Although past documents put the death toll at 148, researchers have since revised the number to 150, including 53 Chinese workers. Chinese workers were listed in the government inquest and annual report of the Minister of Mines as "Chinamen, names unknown", followed by a tag number. [2] BC employers did not have to report the deaths of Chinese employees until 1897.[3] Some accounts suggest that 48 of the 53 miners had the surname of Mah — records may have been destroyed when Nanaimo's Chinatown burned to the ground in 1960.[4] The monument on Milton Street lists the names of white miners, but only the tally number for Chinese miners.
At the time of the explosion, many white Nanaimoites blamed Chinese workers for the disaster, claiming the workers could not read signs or instructions. However, most miners — regardless of race — were illiterate.[5]
Operated by the Vancouver Coal Company, the Number One mine opened in 1884 at the foot of Milton Street in Nanaimo. Its shafts and tunnels extended under the harbour to Protection Island, Newcastle Island, and the Nanaimo River. After the explosion, the mine re-opened, and produced 18 million tons of coal before closing forever in 1938.
And Greg, I googled "Samuel Hague Oldham, Lancashire, England" and got these 2 links - what do you think?
William Bower TURNER M 41 M Oldham, Lancashire, England. Rel: Head ... Samuel HAGUE 1 M Chapel En Le Frith, Derby, England. Rel: Son. Dwelling: Back Lane ...
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/ ~dusk/1881_chapelcensus.html - 412k - Cached - Similar pages
 
RECYCLEGEN - Preliminary Archives
George Schofield, Limefield, Lancashire, linen-draper. Jacob Richardson, Hyde, Cheshire, shopkeeper. Charles Oldham, of Newton-green, Mottram-in-Longdendale ...
www.recyclegen.com/archives/archive01/preliminary.html - 350k - Cached - Similar pages
If you scroll down on this page here, you will read about Thomas Hague in court!

THOMAS HAGUE, deception : perjury.
The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t18311201-279

Trial Summary:



"werf@chart.net" <werf@charter.net> wrote:

try sending this again.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:57 PM
Subject: hearns etc

Hi Cathy -
Here's what I found today.
John Minto died LA 31 Mar 1932.
LA Times 21 Feb 1936 Mrs Clara Minto, beloved sister of Mrs Frank N Smith, services today at 2 PM at Delmer Smith Mortuary.
WWI draft card for John Minto is in Kalamazoo, Mich; working at farming for John O Hearn.  John Minto's wife Clara.  So, they left BC Canada about 1917 and went to Detroit, then later to California.
1911 census of British Columbia, Canada
Victoria
John Minto  Head of household born Jan 1873 in Scotland  to Canada 1881  Methodist  Editor, Own Account
Clara B "     wife                      born Jul 1872  USA  to Canada 1889  Naturalized  Methodist
Mary M "     daughter               born Oct 1885  BC   Methodist
There is some other information on the 1911 census that I haven't been able to read.  Clara Belle's ethnic origin, for one.  I think it begins with "A."  You can find this census be calling up the keywords automated genealogy, and then fiddling around with the site.
Mary M's birthdate is probably wrong, probably more likely should be about 1892.
Call up the website "British Columbia" births marriages deaths, and you will find:
John Minto married Clara Belle Condron or Hague  Victoria  27 May 1901
Andrew F Miles married M C Hague 1898  Grand Forks District BC
Mary Hague  died 24 September 1890 Nanaimo  52 years old
Samuel Hague  d 25 Jan 1892 Nanaimo  54 years old
In 1887, there was some kind of a mine disaster in Nanaimo.  I haven't looked this up yet.  But there is one rootsweb.com file that picks up two of Clara Belle's siblings:
Samuel Hague born c. 1839
married Mary Leest  born c. 1838
son: William Hague born c. 1859 Oldham lancashire England, married Lucy Baker 15 May 1884 Nanaimo; she d 14 Feb 1888 Nanaimo; William died 3 May 1887 in Nanaimo
daughter:  Nancy Hague born c. 1866 in Pa; married, first to Frank tully 18 July 1884 Nanaimo; he born c. 1859 Ca died 3 May 1887 Nanaimo; married 18 July 1884 Nanaimo.  The date of death 3 May 1887 is the same as William's, so this must be the date of the mine disaster.  Also, the name Tully is probably where your mom got her name.  Nancy married, second, to Gustav Steffin 23 Oct 1890 in Nanaimo.  Nancy had a daughter Mary Gertrude Tully born 1 June 1885 in Nanaimo.  There is other information on the BC vital records site that concerns this family.  You can find the rootsweb file that contains this information, and email the submitter if you want.  It seems that it is not a family file, but instead, a historical one.
With the above information, now I could find Clara Belle in the censuses.
1880 census, Coos County, Oregon  8 June 1880
Mary Hague  41  Housekeeper  born England father born England mother born England; Mary could read but not write
Lizzie  1  Mo Eng Eng
Clarabel  8  Mo Eng Eng
Sam  7  Mo Eng Eng
Frank E  4  Ore Eng Eng
Mary C  2  Ore Eng Eng
(probably husband Samuel Hague was already up in Canada in 1880)
1870 census, Third Ward Sub 113 Jackson Co Mo  11 June 1870  Kansas City Missouri
Samuel Hague  32  Fireman  $500 real estate $100 personal property  born England
Mary  32  born Eng
Rosanna  12  Eng
William  4  Eng
Nancy  5  Penn
Elizabth  2  Missouri
(probably William's age is wrong; should be about 9 years old)
1861 census, Oldham, Lancashire, England  15 Saint Helens (Street)
Samuel Hague  23  Cotton spinner  born Lancashire Oldham
Mary  22  born Lancashire Oldham
Rose Ann  3  born Lancashire Oldham
UK birth / death / marriage index (on ancestry.com)
Samuel Hague married Mary Lees First Quarter 1859 in Oldham District, Greater Manchester, Lancashire; if you order the certificate, it will give the parents of both the bride and groom
1851 census, Oldam below town, Lancashire, England  57 Bow Street
Thomas Hague  49  Turner Cotton  born Lancashire Oldham
Ann  40  born Lancashire Oldham
Ellen  16  piecer, cotton  born Lancashire Oldham
Ann  9  born Lancashire Oldham
Samuel  13  piecer, cotton  born Lancashire Oldham
Mary  2  born Lancashire Hulme
1841 census, Borough of Oldham, Lancashire, England, Bloom Street
Thomas Hague  30  Cotton twisting  born in County of Lancashire?  Yes
Ann  30  Y
Eliza  8  Y
Ellen  6  Y
Samuel  3  Y
William  1  Y
So, your ancestors are:
Clara Belle Hague
born July 1872 Mo
m1  to Paddy Condron
m2  27 May 1901 Victoria BC
died  before 21 Feb 1936  LA
Samuel Hague
born 1837/38 Oldham, Lancashire, England
married 1Q 1859  Oldham Dist, Lancashire England to Mary Lees
died 25 Jan 1892 Nanaimo BC
Mary Lees
born 1837/38/39 Oldham, Lancashire, England
married 1 Q 1859 Oldham Dist, Lancashire England to Samuel Hague
d 24 September 1890 Nanaimo, BC
Thomas Hague
born 1810/11  Oldham, Lancashire, England
married  about 1831 to Ann
died after 1851
Ann
born 1810/11  Oldham, Lancashire, England
married  about 1831 to Thomas Hague
died after 1851

--- END ---

EMAIL FROM PATTY TO CATHY
12/20/2006
Clara Belle (sp?) 's maiden name was Hague. This information is from talks with
Pat over the phone that I wrote down in my address book.
The girls called her Nana. She was 5 foot, 8 inches.....which seems like
nothing now, but then was quite tall. Her first husband was an Irish drunk
named Eugene Condron.(called Paddy). He never was talked about! John O. Hearn
who married her daughter Mary Maybelle, had three siblings...Frank, Agnes, and
Mary Regan ...... the latter lived in San Francisco maybe. We visited someone
up there one time. I didn't think she was a sister?????
John O. Hearn 's parents Edward O'Jearn and engineer born in Ontario and
Elizabeth born in Michigan .
John Hearn was born in Elk, Michigan Feb 19, 1883.

--- END ---

EMAIL FROM GREG TO CATHY
12/21/2006
Not everyone has a movie star in their family tree !   Very glamorous (I think 40's were the peak of glamor in this country).  Hope Patrice has some history for you.  You can check rootsweb now so you'll know who she will be talking about.
I found Eugene Condron.  He died in Victoria, BC in 1897 at age 29.  You can find this by googling the words British Columbia births marriages deaths
I suspect that Eugene had a brother named James who married in 1894.  He died in 1911 in Vancouver at age 45.  There was a Condron child born 1895 that you will see on the site.  Wonder if this was a son of Eugene or James ?
Have added these folks to the tree, so when it re-posts in about 10 days, it'll be up and running.  Hope we get some emails from others who are looking for these same families.
--- end ---
EMAIL FROM CATHY TO SISTERS PATTY AND SUSIE
12/22/2006
Below is the latest update from Greg. Click here to see the family tree, but Eugene/Paddy was mommy's mother's father - the details will be updated online in a week or so, according to Greg.
Name:
Eugene Condron
Place
Victoria
Reg. Number:
1897-09-010940
Copy Available
Date:
1897 1 18 (Yr/Mo/Day)
Age:
29
Event:
Death
Microfilm #:
B13078   (GSU # 1927288)

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=gregvdw&id=I20161

--- END ---

MAY 8, 2017
Just returned from cruise with high school friends from Los Angeles to Vancouver, BC and stopped by the Victoria house! It is more beautiful than in the photos.






Click here to see all my cruise pics:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24982925@N06/albums/72157680081877594


MAY 8, 2017 UPDATE
Research emails from Greg Van der Werff (April-May 2017)

I began:
Hi Greg,
So been re-reading your email on my mother's ancestors as I'm going on the class cruise this Saturday and will be seeing the house where the family lived in Victoria.

Been also reading the BC vital records and find nothing about Mary Maybelle Condron marrying John Edward O'Hearn/Hearn. Also can't find anything of my mother, Tully Joyce HEarn Palmer, and her sister, Patricia Joyce Hearn Hibben.

What do you make of that?? Were they married? Were the children born under a different last name?

Thanks.

Curiously yours,
Cathy


I have no idea. People can get married in lots of places, and sometimes it was considered normal to get married in the county next door, just so the couple could make a trip out of it. I don't know how the Canadian system of birth / marriage / death records worked. In the US, mandatory records at the county level for birth and death were not normally required until about 1905. Before that date (approximate), you have to find christanings, family Bible records, newspaper announcements, etc. By about 1905 birth / death records were required at the county level, and then these were forwarded to the central repository at the state. This 1905 date varies from state to state. However, marriage records were kept at the county level basically from the beginning of the country formation (except for Pennsylvania, where marriage records weren't required until about 1880, because the Quakers objected to the government being involved in their personal business). So, I don't know what the situation in B C was. It's possible that your mother didn't have a formal birth record.

I looked at the information on my rootsweb file. Who was involved in the mine disaster? I didn't notice this when I looked.

Nice house. Shoulda just stayed right there !!

Have fun on the cruise.



Still digging but I believe that the brother of Clara Belle Hague Condron Minto (whew!), William Hague, as well as her sister's husband, Frank Tully, were both killed in the mining accident.

Also found that her first husband, Eugene 'Paddy' Condron, died really young too. Just now found this and added to post:

EUGENE 'PADDY' CONDRON
Father of Mary Maybelle Condron

"Coroner Orompton has decided an official inquiry to be necessary in the case of Eugene Condron, a machinist employed by the E. & N. railway company, who died very suddenly at an early hour yesterday morning. There is no suspicion of foul play, but the fact that no medical practitioner was in attendance upon the deceased necessitates an inquest to determine the cause of death. Mr. Condron, who was a native of Queenstown, Ireland, was but 20 years of age, and leaves a widow and one child, resident on Henry street, Victoria West. He has during several months past been subject to frequent attacks of appendicitis, and one of these it is supposed proved fatal. On Sunday he was in apparent good health— at 3 yesterday morning he became suddenly ill, and before medical aid could be secured, expired."
SOURCE: Daily Colonist (1897-01-19)
https://archive.org/stream/dailycolonist18970119uvic/18970119_djvu.txt

Cathy
This is what makes genealogy interesting ! One piece at a time. And when you add a piece, that helps you get the next piece.

You can probably find the Condron family in Queenstown (County Cork) in the 1901 or 1911 census of Ireland, which is available on-line. (Even though yours were in Canada by then, there was usually part of a family that stayed put.)

Or, you can check the "Griffith's Valuation" which is available on Ancestry.com. This is a record for all of Ireland for all owners and lessees of land. Between the two categories, owner or lessee, this included practically everyone.

Condron is a rare last name, so you wouldn't have too much to search through in either of these searches.
Greg


Greg,
Thanks for the genealogy tips. It is quite interesting and sad as well learning so many died so young, not to mention all the traumas. For example, Clara Belle, my great grandmother who I never met, lost her father when she was 5, her brother and brother-in-law when she was 15, her pregnant daughter, and her parents. Then she had to raise 2 little girls (my mom & her older sister). No wonder my mother didn't like hospitals. She said because people always died there! Sadly, due to her stroke, my mother ended up in the hospital and died there. Sigh...
Cathy




Yes, I noticed all the trauma in your family. However, it's best if you don't dwell on it. The thing is that before about 1920, all these "holes" in the family fabric were NORMAL FOR MOST FAMILIES. This I learned from all the research I did. What we have lived through since 1920 is not normal, in an historical sense. The medical system improved so much since then that we have developed this idea that "most everyone" lives until at least 75. And that this outcome is pretty much "guaranteed." This thought is only about 100 years old.

There were some families in the US which went through the "golden years" of America, let's say 1800 - 1900, and they were in favorable locations like Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and they have lots of descendants today. But this was also an exceptional period.

Until 1920, most of the world had no birth control, but an almost zero population growth anyway. What does this mean, on an individual level? Well it means that most couples had about 6 children, and ONLY ONE of these children lived to adulthood, married, and then had (6) children of their own. The reason that there were only 6 children and not 10 was that, in Europe (and probably other places I haven't looked into), people married relatively late (women about age 24, men about age 28), and after 6 children, there was a really high probability that one of either the father or mother had died. Both sexes died relatively young from the usual diseases; the men had accidents on their jobs, or got killed in a war; the women often died from complications from childbirth. From our perspective, this arithmetic is incredibly depressing, but that's the way it was, from 10,000 B.C. until about 1920. When you think about it, the "odds" of biological success for most kinds of plants and animals are even much, much lower.

Here's an example from the US. Calvin Coolidge and his wife had two sons. They played tennis one day on the White House tennis courts. One of the sons got a blister, and it got infected (blood poisoning), and he died a couple of days later. That was in maybe about 1927.

Within western Europe, one of the most difficult countries to stay alive in was England. The wealth was allowed to flow to the top, and stay there. The upper classes could have cared less about the lower classes. In Germany, the Netherlands, and France, things were a little better, but still nothing like we would expect now. Once I got my family tree worked up with direct ancestors, I went back to see if any of the ancestors had a sibling or two who now has living descendants. Except for the US families mentioned above, there was normally no such living line. In other words, only one child kept the lights on, in each generation. After 1920, in the West, this situation improved, and this is one of the reasons why couples have fewer children now.

In our thoughts, there is the "micro" and the "macro." The "micro" has to do with what is close at hand, and personal. It includes things like taking the trash out, doing your income tax, feeding the pets, working, and taking care of your children. We normally spend 99% of our time in this world, because the "micro" is what is before us, and it is very demanding. However, there is also a "macro" world that exists in parallel. It is impersonal, and operates by very different rules. It has to do with very long-term survival, balance of all life on the planet, balance of life to available resources, and so forth. It is a world of very hard constraints, and we are often told "no" by it. (And people really don't like to be told "no!") If we wait long enough, Earth will be consumed by the Sun, so how to process that? The way most people do it is by totally ignoring the macro, impersonal world; they never toggle up to the macro at all. Although this approach may be comforting, it denies reality, so it will lead us to many unrealistic expectations, and therefore it will ultimately bring deep unhappiness.

You have had a great loss. But you are also a very positive, optimistic person, at heart. My purpose in writing these things is to give you alternative ways of thinking, so as to not dull your potential for happiness and a productive life. It is always possible to toggle up to the macro, at least for a little of your "thinking time," and thereby to understand our true place in that world, without frustration, anxiety, and fear. With your religious background, I would say that this toggling up is also the essence of faith.

Right up front in the Book of Genesis, we have "Whosoever eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, shall surely die." This is such a harsh thought, and for most of my life, I puzzled over what it could mean. I view "eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" as a metaphor for obtaining a higher intelligence generally, which, it appears, only humans have achieved. But the cruel irony is that, although this intelligence carries with it much potential, it is also very hard to manage, and will ultimately not be well-managed, and bring "death," which could be a metaphor for our personal death, and for overall extinction. This is the situation we are in now, as all our constant "interventions" have brought short-term advantage, but cumulatively, lead us to extinction. (This is a very hard irony for most people to understand. It comes about because the micro-world and the macro-world operate by different rules.) Alternatively, we are also reminded of the incredible gift of the "Garden of Eden" (which I view as a metaphor for Earth), and the gift of our own personal life. Therefore, we should not be turned away from the knowledge of those gifts, by the workings of our "higher intelligence." It is not for us to know why we must one day die, or, more broadly, why our entire planet will certainly fall into ths Sun.

My understanding of this early verse from Genesis has given me great comfort and happiness. The secret here is that while we are necessarily very involved in ourselves, at the same time, we must always surrender ourselves to God's greater plan.

If you don't care for the Jewish and Christian messages here, you can check with Buddhism's two main beliefs.

1. All life is suffering (this belief it has in common with most other religions)
2. The CAUSE of suffering is attachment. (this belief is unusual)

Buddhism doesn't say that we shouldn't have desires or attachments. What is says is that, when we experience suffering, it is usually because we are inordinately attached to something. (The biggest thing we are attached to is ourselves, but there are endless other lesser attachments.) Nevertheless, we are always free to surrender our particular attachment that is bringing us suffering. These thoughts also make a lot of sense to me.
Greg

PS
Next time I go to the genealogy library, I'll do a little more looking for your Condrons in Ireland. I think they can probably be found. The reference to Queenstown gives something definite to look for.




Hi Cathy -

I found some more family information for you today. It was all in various places on Ancestry.com and Rootsweb.com. Rootsweb.com is free, but you need a subscription to use Ancestry.com. However, your local Mormon Church probably has a little genealogy library, and most of these libraries subscribe to Andestry.com, and they will let their patrons use the subscription when they are doing research in the library. The local library here is only a few blocks from my house.

Mary Maybell Hearn's death certificate is on Ancestry.com, in Michigan. She is reported born on 26 October 1890 in Nanaimo, British Colubiia, a daughter of Eugene Condron born unknown and Clara Hague born St Joseph Missouri. She died on 14 January 1919 in Providence Hospital, but her usual residence was 239 John R Street. The informant for the death certificate was Miss May Tully. She was buried on 18 January 1919, but I neglected to look for the place she was buried. She died from influenza, and was only sick 7 days. This was one of the last periods of the great flue epidemic that went around the world. My grandfather died from it in Denver in late 1918, when he was 30 years old.

In the 1881 census of Nanaimo, British Columbia, there is a family consisting of Henry Austin 41, born in New Brunswick, Catharine Austin 35, born in Ireland, Henry Austin 2, born in BC, Minnie Condran 16 born in BC, and James, born unreadable (probably 11) in BC. Catharine must have been first married to Mr Condron, and therefore her children with him were Eugene "Paddy" Condron, Minnie Condron, and James Condron. There may also have been a son, Martin Condron. Unfortunately I couldn't tell what Henry Austin's occupation was in the census.

Henry Martin "Harry" Austin was born 21 July 1879 in Departure Bay, Nanaimo Regional District, BC; he died on 9 April 1944 in Victoria. He married Marion Wood on 15 August 1899. She was born in England in 1878, and died in 1965. They are both buried in Colwood, BC, in Hatley New Gardens. It seems likely that they had no children. Harry was an engineer, probably railroad. (That shows up a lot in your families, as an occupation.)

Minnie Condron was born 11 May 1862 in Ireland, and married 29 September 1881 in Nanaimo, BC. She died on 18 March 1948 in Cumberland, BC. She married Alfred Edward Walker. He was a locomotive engineer in 1891. In the 1891 census, this family is listed in District 19, Union Mines, Vancouver. I don't know if this is Vancouver Island or Vancouver City. They had several children: Kathleen Selena, Mary Ellen "Tessie," Jessie Amelia; Ethel, Alfred C (died young),
James Harley. In the 1901 census, Minnie (listed as Mary in 1891; this was most likely her actual name) was a widow living in Cumberland, Vancouver (Island or City?), and she was a general merchant. Her husband was the engineer in the Trent River Train Disaster of August 17, 1898. It seems that this family has numerous descendants alive today.

Eugene "Paddy" Condron is shown in a city directory in 1890 and 1892. IN 189o, he was a fireman for the E * N RR, living at Nanaimo. James Condron was a "wiper" working for the same railroad. James did marry, but I wasn't able to follow him down yet. In 1892, Eugene Condron was working for the E & N RR, living at 9 Amelia (Street). He is buried in the Ross Bay Cemetery, Victoria. (See the website Find a Grave for some of these cemetery listings.)

There is a family file on Ancestry.com and another on Rootsweb.com that follows these families. They show that Catherine, wife of Henry Austin, was actually Catherine Ormond, so that is a new last name for you. They say her first husband was Peter Condron (on the Rootsweb file, Peter Condon). I had guessed that Catharine's maiden name was Henson (forget the reason why just now), but I think that must be wrong, and it is Ormond instead.

I was hoping to figure out where the Condrons and Ormonds came from, but was not successful. Your death record for Eugene "Paddy" Condron shows him a native of Queenstown, Ireland. Queenstown is now called Cobh. It is the actual port for the town of Cork. Queenstown was a major stopping place for steamers that originated in Liverpool, and then picked up or let out passengers in Ireland. The main ports for immigrants to sail out of Ireland would have been Londonderry, Belfast, Dublin, and Queenstown. So, I remain a little skeptical whether Peter Condron was actually born in Queenstown, or just got on the ship there. I also was not able to find "proof" that Catherine's name was Ormond, or the her first husband was Peter, so I'm just taking the word of the people who submitted the family trees on Ancestry.com and Rootsweb.com. Usually, however, these trees are fairly accurate.

Kate Ormond, wife of Henry Austin, died on 22 January 1905 in Victoria. Find a Grave shows 22 March 1905. She is buried in the Ross Bay Cemetery in Victoria.

So, there is definitely more to be found for your family.


Greg




Greg,
Wow great work, Greg! I'll have to check this out.

So looks like Mary Hearn died in Michigan. That would make sense why we couldn't find it in Canada. From what I read, they had moved to Detroit from Victoria in 1917. Wonder why they moved. That's a big change from Canada to the USA. It most likely had to do with John Hearn's work. 239 John R Street is in Detroit's downtown area near the Opera House but there's no home or anything. Clara Belle, her mother, owned the Victoria house from 1917-1921. She might have been thinking they would return one day? But as it happened, at some point they moved to California. Again why? The father's work? My mother and her sister graduated from Los Angeles High School.

"John and Clara Belle Minto lived in the house from 1912-16, and Clara owned the property from 1917-21, after they left Victoria. John was born in Hamilton, ON, and was a telegraph editor with Victoria Daily Times. He married Victoria-born Clara in 1901."
http://www.victoriaheritagefoundation.ca/HReg/JamesB/STurner132.html

Thanks!

Cathy





Cathy,
A few years ago, I read a big new popular book on the great influenza epidemic, mostly because my grandfather died of the disease in late 1918. It was very interesting. Normally flu strains start out where there are large concentrations of pigs and chickens, and then cross over to humans. The most likely place for this to start is therefore southeast Asia. However, they think this one started in western Kansas, and was just a total genetic fluke. From there, it got transferred to Camp Funston in eastern Kansas, where soldiers were congregated getting ready to go to Europe in 1917. Then it went to Europe and got transferred to the trenches. It went through a couple of waves. (Sometimes called the "Spanish Flu," it ultimately killed more people than WWI did, I think between 20 and 30 million worldwide.) At each step, the virus got "tuned up," and more deadly. The last wave was the worst, and I think this happened in early 1919, after the War was over.

The mutated virus got unusually virulent, for reasons explained in the book. Mostly this was due to the fact that it could find big concentrations of soldiers living in wretched conditions; then it would transfer to the general population. An unusual characteristic was that it preferentially attacked people from age 18 to 45, and the young and old survived better. The mechanism for this situation - which is the opposite of most diseases - was that it overstimulated the immune response, and that was what killed the patient. This overstimulation tended to be strongest in the strongest part of the population, which was the 18 to 45 year olds. Usually the victims were only sick a few days. So Mary Maybelle definitely fits into this category.

Greg


Cathy,
This email gives you more cemeteries to look at in Victoria.

Did John Hearn ever marry again? Or did he remain single after Mary Maybelle died?

I remembered that your mom was probably named after Tully Boyce, who was the President of the Mine Workers Safety Association in 1891. There are Tullys showing up repeatedly, and I was surprised that the informant for the 1919 death certificate was May Tully, whoever she is. I want to look up Frank Tully, who died in the mine disaster, and was Clara Belle's brother-in-law. It seems that some Tullys stayed important for your family for a long time. Frank Tully was born in California.
Greg


Cathy,
Frank Hague, younger brother of Clara Belle, was in Los Angeles in 1920 and 1930. It looks like maybe he was the first to move here. He was a hardware merchant.
Greg

Cathy,
John R Street ? Is this a real name ? Wonder what it means.
Greg




Greg,
First mayor of Detroit.

"Today, a street in metropolitan Detroit bears his name. "John R" Street was named while John R. Williams was still living, atypical to the way most roads obtain their name (which is usually posthumously).[13] In fact, Williams gave the road its name himself."
Cathy


Cathy,
Tully Boyce ran for office in Nanaimo in 1894.

So May Tully was a cousin. Makes sense.

Today I found Tully Boyce. He was born in Ireland in about 1855/56, and died in Victoria on 7 November 1927. He was a coal miner, and later a foreman of a coal mine. He was married to Catherine, and they had several children.

I found Jack Hearn's death record in Detroit. A summary appears on ancestry, but not a copy of the actual record, as in the case of Mary Maybelle. It says he was married, so he probably married again. I can look tomorrow on the US censuses in 1920, 1930, and 1940 for him.

Wendy Jones has a family file posted on Rootsweb.com. It contains the couple Peter Condon (not Contron) and Kate Ormond. However, this is the right couple, because one daughter Mary is shown, and she was the wife of Alfred Edward Walker. Wendy's email is mrshuma53@shaw.ca. You might want to email her and ask her where she finds the name Peter Condon (Condron), as I couldn't find it. She last posted the file in 2010, so you can hope that the email address is still valid.

I wasn't able to find Frank Tully. My initial guess was that he was related to Tully Boyce, but I guess not. One source shows Frank Tully's parents as Oscar Tully and Mary Mills, but I wasn't able to find them either ! There is another Frank Tully in San Benito County, California, in 1880, but I don't know if he's the right one. We know that Frank Tully, the first husband of Nancy Hague, was born in California in about 1857. You can find his grave stone on Find a Grave.

Yes, the information from Pat Hibben does make sense now.
Greg

Hi Cathy -

I found out a little more about your peeps today.

In 1920, John Hearn was in Los Angeles, working for an oil company.
In 1930, he was in Detroit, at 2981 Buena Vista Street.
He was married to Ethel, who was 35 years old, born in Michigan. His step-daughter was Maxine Wenzel, born in 1917 or 1918 in MIchigan. He was a broker, real estate. Ethel's mother, Carrie Austin was living with them.
In 1940, he was in Detroit, at 2929 West Chicago Boulevard. He was married to Ethel. Her mother, Arrie Austin was living with them.

Lucas County, Ohio, marriages.
6 December 1927
Jack Hearn, son of Edward Hearn and Elizabeth Carrol, real estate, married once, now a widower, living in Detroit, married
Ethel Clara Wenzel, 32, daughter of William Austin and Carrie Hitchock. She was born 22 November 1895 in Michigan. Living in Detroit. She was married before to George C Wenzel, but was divorced.

In the 1920 census, George C Wenzel, wife Ethel C, daughter Maxine V, and father-in-law William F Austin, were living in Detroit, 357 Trumble Avenue. George Wenzel was a carpenter, contractor, working on his own account, and employing others

I wasn't able to find the death of Ethel Clara Austin.

Her daughter Maxine Virginia Wenzel married first to unknown Tumath, and second to unknown Shaw. Maxine was born on 10 May 1917 in Detroit, and died in June 1978.

----------------------------------------

James Condron, younger brother of Eugene "Paddy" Condron was a miner in Wellington in 1887. In 1889, he was a wiper for the E & N RR. In 1890, he was a fireman (presumably for the E & N RR)

James Condron was born about 1869/70 in Ireland. He married Elizabeth Annie Hemer in 1894 in Nanaimo. She was the daughter of John Hemer, born 1847 in England, and Annie Unknown, born 1849 in England. John was a blacksmith and farmer, living near Nanaimo. John and Annie's children were Frederick W, Herbert, Elizabeth Annie, and Emma. Elizabeth Annie was 2 when the 1881 census was taken in Nanaimo * Noonas Bay. Frederick and Herbert were born in the United States, but Elizabeth Annie and Emma were born in British Columbia.

In the 1901 census, John Hemer, born 1895 in Victoria, was living with John and Annie Hemer, who were his grandparents. Probably his mother had died in childbirth or soon after, and his father James Condron was not able to care for his son, so he left him to be raised by his grandparents. The name of James Condron's son, John, therefore became confused, and was later called John Condron Hemer, instead of John Condron. John Condron Hemer married in York, Ontario on 14 March 1918 to Mary Irene Gilmartin (aka Irene Corinne Gilmartin). They had one son, John Ross Hemer, who is on Find a Grave. James Condron died in Vancouver in February 1911, just before the 1911 census was taken. I couldn't find him in the 1901 census.

In the 1921 census, John C Hemer and Mary Irene Hemer were living on 1346 Cotton Drive, Vancouver. John C Hemer was an electrician.

John Ross Hemer married Maureen Catherine O'Malley. He was a District sales manager for British Columbia Telephone. He was born in 1920 in Vancouver, and died in 1970 in Vancouver.

---------------------------------------------

If you want to do more work, it is possible to find the fathers of Samuel Hague and his wife Mary Lees. You would need to get the actual marriage certificate from England for their marriage in the First Quarter of 1859 in Oldham, Lancashire. The references you need are Oldham District, (document) 8d 806. Samuel Hague's father was probably Thomas Hague. It is too difficult to find the parents of Mary Lees, because there are too many possibilities in the 1841 and 1851 census, so the best way to find her father is to get the marriage certificate mentioned above. Once you have his name, then it will be possible to find her mother's name, and the names of her brothers and sisters.

---------------------------------------------

The information in the two sections above can be found on Ancestry.com and Find a Grave.

Greg


Cathy,
You probably already have this.

Google "Clara Belle Hague" and you'll find another house, 1527 Amelia (formerly 9 Amelia St) that Eugene Condon and she lived in in the early 1890's.
Greg

Cathy,
Your mom's peeps are interesting. I'll go to the library today to do a little more searching.

The Ross Bay Cemetery is at 1516 Fairfield Road in Victoria. Eugene "Paddy" Condron is buried there, and so is his mother Catherine "Kate" Ormond, who married first to (Peter?) Condron, and second to Henry Austin. She died on 22 January 1905. It could be that there is no stone for either one of them. However, the Cemetery may still have a record.

Eugene's older sister was Mary "Minnie" Condron, who was the wife of Alfred Edward Walker. He was the railroad engineer who was driving the train that went over a trestle that collapsed, in the "Trent River Disaster," in 1898. I looked up where this took place, and the Trent River runs from southwest to northeast, just to the east of the village of Cumberland. Cumberland in turn is several miles northwest up the coast from Nanaimo. Comox is nearby to Cumberland. All these places are on the east side of Vancouver Island, so they don't front on the Specific Ocean.

Minnie died on 18 March 1948 in Cumberland. Her death certificate could be the place where the maiden name of her mother, Kate, appears. Some sources seem to indicate that it is Ormond. Maybe the name of her father will also appear, which is supposedly Peter Condron.

Have a nice trip.
Greg


Cathy,
I looked up the E & N Railway, and the full name was the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway. It was completed in 1886. Esquimalt is a suburb of Victoria, which is just to the west. Apparently the Railway ran from Esquimalt to Nanaimo, and beyond. Leland Stanford and Collis Huntington organized the project, and owned many of the original shares. "Esquimalt" is French for "eskimo."

The main reason for building the railway was to get at the coal deposits on the east side of Vancouver Island.

So Paddy Condron was a machinest for this railroad, and it makes sense that he would have been living in Victoria in 1897 at the time of his death, and was buried at the Ross Bay Cemetery. This would have been considered a steady, good job, and that is what supported the living at 1527 Amelia Street (formerly numberd as 9 Amelia Street).

It is not exactly proven that Minnie Condron, wife of Alfred Edward Walker, and James Condron, husband of Elizabeth Annie Hemer, were siblings of Paddy Condron, but I feel confident that this was the case. Minnie and James appear in the 1881 census with the family of Henry and Kate Austin; they were 16 and 11 at the time. Also in the family was Henry Martin "Harry" Austin, who was 2. If you check Ancestry.com, there are several city directories for Victoria available, and Eugene "Paddy" and James Condron were listed in a couple of them (sone after the other, but this means nothing by itself, as the directory shows the names in an alphabetic listing). James was also working on the E & N Railway, so this strongly suggests that he was Paddy's brother, and that Paddy got him a job there. The name "Condron" is also very rare in this location, and there just isn't any other choice but that Minnie, Paddy, and James were siblings. Paddy was also in the 1881 census, but already "working out," and living with two other young men. In "them days," young men were expected to be out working by age 13, 14, 15, and the young women were expected to get married early too, by 16, 17, 18.
Greg


Greg,
So did you happen to see where John Hearn died? I missed it if you already wrote it. Detroit?
Cathy



Cathy,
Yes, in Detroit. The death record is available on Ancestry.com, but only in summary form. Mary Maybelle's actual death certificate is available, so for her, you can see the cause of death, and the place where she was buried. Because his record is just in summary form, you don't get his last address, or the informant, or the cause of death, or the cemetery. To get that information, you would have to request an uncertified copy of the death record from the State of Michigan. Since you are a granddaughter, you will qualify as a person who is entitled to have it.

I was not able to find Ethel's death record. It's possible that she married again after your grandfather died. In that case, it is not so clear how to find her death information. Sometimes it shows up as a Social Security record, but I wasn't able to find this under the name Ethel Hearn.

There is also some confusion about where he was born. Some sources say Elk Rapids, but his marriage record in 1927 shows Peck, Michigan. These locations are miles and miles apart. I think what happened is that there was a village of Elk that has since disappeared, and that this was near Peck, which is in Sanilac County, on the east side of Michigan.

In the 1881 census, Eugene Condron was in Nanaimo & Noonan Bay (district).
William Rafter 19 born Eng Bapt Laborer
John Andrews 18 born B C Meth "
Eugene Condron 16 born Irel Catholic "

So, he was out on his own in 1881. I suspect that he was probably only about 13, and has overstated his age.

1891 census, Eugene Condron. Not found

1901 census, Victoria, Sub-district No D
Kate Austin born 23 Dec 1850 in Ireland, immigration year 1872, R Cath, nurse
She was with the James Dunsmuir family. His occupation isn't given. They had several children, and domestic servants

1901 census, Esquimalt, British Columbia
James J Condon, born Jan 10 1869 in Ireland, R Cath, miner
He was living by himself. This was Eugene's younger brother.

Find a Grave
Mary Ann "Minnie" Condron McIntyre
born 11 May 1862 in Ireland
died 18 March 1948
She married Robert McIntyre after the death of her first husband, Alfred Edward Walker
she is buried in Courtenay, B C, in the Courtenay Civic Cemetery

Alfred Edward Walker
born 1863 in Nanaimo
died 17 August 1898
buried same cemetery as Minnie

I didn't find Robert McIntyre. Nor did I find Minnie in the 1911 or 1921 censuses.

1940 census, Detroit, Ward 22, Block 26 - 27, 14938 Forrer Avenue
Don Tumath 24 born Minnesota, in 1935 he was in Gladstone, Minnesota, Mechanical engineer, trailer manufacturer
Maxine " 22 born Michigan

Greg




Cathy,
I found Rose Ann Hague. She married Eugene O'Connell. They had 5 children: Edna (= Unknown Richardson; two children Rosemary and James); Mabel; Stella (=William Ford; one daughter, Mable); infant; Rose (died 1890). The O'Donnells lived in Coos Bay, Oregon. He died in 1920, and she died in 1943. Both are buried in the Old Pioneer Cemetery. He was a hardware dealer. He was born in Cork, County Cork, Ireland, in 1847. William and Stella Ford eventually were in San Francisco. He was a hardware merchant.

Frank Hague married Eva J unknown. They were in Coos Bay in 1910, in LA in 1920, and 1930. In 1930, they were living on Country Club Drive. He died in 1939. She died in 1973. Couldn't find his burial. She is buried in Palo Alto. He was a hardware merchant. They had no children.

Still looking for Sam Hague, Lizzie (Betty?) Hague, Nancy Hague, and Mary Hague.

Also trying to figure out what happened to Neil Manor. He was a doctor who lived at one time on one of the islands west of Seattle. He married Barbie Lundquist. Norman Manor is still alive, in Montana, so maybe I'll be able to call him. The parents of Neil and Norman were Wesley H Manor and Mildred Ridge. In the 1940 census, they were in Lancaster; Wesley was a milk route salesman. I wasn't able to find where they lived in Burbank. Wesley and Mildred died in San Bernardino, both in 1970. She is buried in Kingman, Kansas. Both she and Wesley were from Kansas.

Carl Lundquist was in Chicago in 1940, working as a hotel clerk. I guess they moved to California about 1943. He was later an assistant manager of a Ralph's store in North Hollywood. Their address was 1002 East Angeleno. I forget now what your address was.
Greg

Wow, lots of locomotive engineers and hardware merchants among the males of
your family.

The Hagues were all over the west coast, LA to SF to Coos Bay to
Nanaimo/Victoria. Obviously not afraid to move.

Greg



Hi Cathy -

I found more on the Hague family today.

Nancy Hague was in Manhattan, New York, in the 1910 census. She was living with four other people: May Tully (her daughter), Gustav Steffen (her son), Mary Hague (her sister), and Mary Minot (her niece). May's occupation was listed as "Actress, vaudeville." Their address was 625 135th Street.

Elizabeth "Lizzie" ("Betty?") Hague married Thomas Sumner Minot. They had two children: Mary Minot and Thomas Hague Minot. Mary Minot married James Cushman Greene; they lived in San Francisco. They had three children: John S Greene, Joan M Greene, and James C Greene. He worked as a salesman for a paper company. Thomas Hague Minot was in San Francisco in 1910, a clerk in a hardware store. A few days after the census was taken, he was killed in a streetcar accident. It seems that his father, Thomas Sumner Minot, a lawyer in Marshfield, Coos County, Oregon, had died before the 1910 census was taken. After Thomas Sumner Minot died, Elizabeth Hague married Calvin Derrick. I don't find him on any record - only his name appears on the death record of Elizabeth in 1947 in San Francisco. She was a widow when she died, so Calvin Derrick had died before 1947. He also doesn't show with her in the 1940 census in San Francisco, so he had died before 1940. In 1940, Elizabeth was living with her daughter, Mary Greene and family.

Sam Hague, the son of Samuel Hague and Mary Lee or Lees. I don't find him on any record except the 1881 census in British Columbia. Probably he died soon after 1881, while he was still a boy.

Frank Edward Hague married Eva Jane Russell. They had no children. He died in 1939 in Los Angeles. She died in 1973.

Mary C Hague, youngest child of Samuel Hague and Mary Lee or Lees, possibly married to Andrew F Miles in 1898 in British Columbia (however, this remains speculative). She married Francis Norwood "Frank" Smith. They had two sons, Francis Norwood Smith Jr, and Harry Hague Smith. Francis Norwood Smith Jr was an actor and singer. But you knew this, because you have contributed information to Find a Grave. Harry Hague Smith was born in 1916 and died in 2017. He is buried in Forest Lawn, Covina Hills.

It would be interesting to know what happened to May Tully. Probably Nancy Hague Tully Steffen died in New York, and so did May Tully.

Not sure if Samuel Conrad Hague who married Blanche Amanda Wood on 1 June 1912 in Vancouver is the same as Samuel Hague, son of Samuel Hague and Mary Lees.

You can google May Tully + vaudeville. She died in (New York) in 1924.

Gustav W Steffen was in New York in 1930.

Greg




Hi Cathy -

I looked at some information you have posted. Whose children are these?

Henrietta Hague
born 7 October 1884 Victoria

Elizabeth Maude Hague
born 13 August 1892 Nanaimo

Lydia Eva May Hague
born 24 October 1893 Nanaimo


Could Henrietta be a first child of William and Lucy Hague?

Could Elizabeth Maude and Lydia Eva May Hague be children of Samuel Hague (son of Samuel Hague and Mary Lees) ?
Greg



Hi Cathy -

Today I found a couple of more items.

In Hendersons British Columbia Gazeteer and Directory, there is a listing in 1898 for John Minto, Reporter, Sentinel, in Kamloops. In the 1900 issue, John Minto is listed as Sub-editor, Times, living at 199 Johnson, in Victoria.

I looked again at the 1911 Canadian census for John and Clara Bell Minto. For some reason, they will not come up on the Ancestry.com website under the Canadian Census section. Instead, they appear on the "Automated Genealogy" website for the 1911 census, Canada. John Minto also doesn't show up on the Ancestry.com 1901 census. He must be in Victoria. I suspect that all the census information hasn't been read in yet to the Ancestry site.

On Ancestry.com, there is a document showing a border crossing into the US from Victoria for John and Clara B Minto, in January 1917. The relative that Clara B gave "back home" was Sam Hague of Victoria. So this shows that Sam Hague (Jr) was still alive in 1917.

There is a directory listing for Samuel Conrad Hague in the 1901 Nanaimo Directory; he was a mail carrier. In a 1935 directory of Vancouver, he was a mail carrier at 1516 Nelson. In a 1949 directory of Coast Capilano, British Columbia, he was retired; there is also Harry Hague, mail carrier, in the same Coast Capilano district.

Nancy Steffen, Gus W Steffen, and Elizabeth Minot were in Manhattan for the 1920 census and 1930 census. Their address was 200 West 95th Street. In 1920, Gus was listed as a mining engineer, and in 1930, an operator, telephone company. In the 1930 census, he is shown as "M" for married, but there is no wife living in the household. This may be a mistake on the part of the census taker. I wasn't able to find Gus in the 1940 census. I also couldn't locate May Tully in the 1920 census. Probably she was in New York, somewhere. She died on 9 March 1924. Perhaps she had married between 1910 and 1920, and so, without knowing her last name, it would be hard to find her.

For Elizabeth Minot, these census listings suggest that she married Calvin Derrick after 1930. He apparently died before 1940.

Thomas Sherman Minot (first husband of Elizabeth "Betty" Hague) was in San Francisco in 1920, and Livingston City, Merced County, California, in 1930. He married a second time to Zipporah Holland. They had three children: Vivian D, Thomas Austin, and Roland B. He died in 1934, and Zipporah died in 1979. Both are buried in Turlock, and are listed on Find a Grave.

The most interesting documents for you to search would be the death certificates for John Minto, 1932, California, and Clara Belle Minto, 1936, California. This would probably show John's parents' names, and also where he and Clara Belle were buried. Since we have John's exact birthdate, it should be possible to find his birth in Scotland. The other document would be the 1948 death certificate for Mary Ann McIntyre, in British Columbia. She was the sister of Eugene "Paddy" Condron, and there is a good chance that this document would show the names of her parents, which should be Peter Condron, and Catherine "Kate" Ormond.

Anyway, there are still plenty of items to fill in. I know you're enjoying your vacation !


Greg






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